Standing in the Gap – with Lynnette Espy-Williams

“Life is always going to happen…you’re going to have a time when you need a time out…I always try to remember the people who stood in the gap for me, and I will always stand in the gap for others…it has amplified my career. To me, when you have a career that feels good, you will have achieved success.”

On this episode of Practice Well(Being) we shared deep conversation (and shed a few tears) with Lynne Espy-Williams, lawyer and Chief Diversity, Equity, & Inclusion Officer at Cozen O’Connor in Philadelphia. 

This is a conversation that touches on early influences and the impact of good examples early in life; on the village it takes to rise to your best self; on the power of sponsorship and mentorship. We discuss the importance of deep, authentic, and psychologically safe relationships in life and in work and that gratitude is a fundamental through-thread to feeling value and bringing value. The importance of all of this on sustaining a purposeful and inclusive culture – and that this is “all of our job.”

 You can also find Lynne on LinkedIn or at Cozen O'Connor. You can connect with Nita on LinkedIn. You can connect with Becky on LinkedIn, Instagram or at her website – www.untanglehappiness.com  

Transcript

Hi, this is Nita in this week's episode of practice wellbeing, Becky and I speak with Lynne Espy-Williams, a partner at Cozen and O'Connor and the chief diversity equity and inclusion officer of the firm. I was touched by the wisdom of her words and her experience as she shared the importance and impact of early influencers and examples in her life and career.

 We often talk about what it means to be supportive, what it means to be inclusive, what it means to be authentic in your life and work. Lynne has this incredible way of threading the lessons she learned in her early life and career, and applying that to her work and her relationships, the result of which is a community of supporters who will have her back and stand in the gap and a life of purpose.

 And. I was moved to tears at one point as Lynne's wisdom hit me hard. I'm sure there may be parts of this conversation for you as well, that remind you what it's all about. Thanks for listening in.

 Lynne, how are you today? I'm wonderful. How are you? I'm doing great. Thank you so much for joining us. I wanted to start off our chat today with just an expression of appreciation for just the example. And true representation for women of color rising in the legal profession that you are. Um, I know that you've been a practicing lawyer for, I think you said 15 years or so, right?

 Is that about right? Yes. 15 years. Time has blown by. I can imagine. Um, and your commercial litigator in a prominent Philadelphia firm, Cozen O'Connor. And I believe has over 800 lawyers now, right? Yeah. So it's a pretty sizable firm and that you also service the, you know, chief diversity and inclusion officer.

 And I think you may even be the first black equity female partner at the firm. And so all this to say, Becky and I are, you know, and the listeners wanna hear more about, you know, your story, but before we kind of get into. You know how you built your career. I'd love to just hear, you know, why was it that you chose to go into the legal profession?

 What connected you to it? You know, it's, it's such an interesting story. It's interesting. And it's not, my dad is a, um, practicing lawyer and have practiced for 50 years. And at the time when I was young, I always knew that I wanted to do what he did, but not. Fully understanding or knowing exactly what that meant and what that was.

 You know, I watched him and I knew that he, you know, was very well respected with the community. I knew that he had a high impact on people. I knew that, you know, in my own seven year old mind that he was, you know, a superhero to me. And so. From that perspective. I said, oh, I wanna do that. But I didn't quite understand what a lawyer was and what a lawyer did.

 And it wasn't until college. Um, really where I decided I was gonna go to law school, but I say the biggest impact was, um, my father. And seeing how he was doing civil rights, he was doing trust and estates and probate work, and he was really making impact with people's families on the community. And I just knew that that's something I wanted to do one day.

 That's awesome. It's just something to aspire to. You see somebody who is an example and you, you look up to them and you, you aspire to be something like that. So I love, I love hearing that. I was just curious about that was something that we hadn't talked about before. So tell us a little bit about how, you know, once you did decide to go into legal profession and you obviously made a choice to work in a law firm, I'm thinking you came right outta law school.

 Is that right? And started working in a firm? Not exactly. So I came right outta law school and I clerked in the Georgia Supreme court. Okay. And at the time I clerked for chief justice, Leah ward, Sears, who was an incredible friend and mentor. She was actually the first. I think woman and black person to serve on the Georgia Supreme court in Georgia.

 Um, and I think youngest person, she was appointed to the bench at 36 years old, which now is like so hard to believe, but she was incredible. And so I clerked with her for nine months to a year. And then, then I went to coz. Okay. So you went to close in. So tell us a little bit about this. Like how you started building your career.

 You obviously had some great examples, but how did you build your career? You know, it's funny because I'm asked to tell the story a lot and when I tell it, I swear it's different every single time, but I, I started out. 15 years ago as a contract lawyer making $25 an hour. And the way that I came into CoSN, which was really by a happenstance, I, I didn't know anything about the firm.

 I didn't even know what I wanted to do. I had met the managing partner at two summers prior. I'd reached out. I said, hi, you know, I passed a bar, I'm clerking for justice Sears. You know, I'm looking for a job. And he said, yeah, you know, come. And I started out as a contract lawyer, mainly because I wasn't a summer.

 They didn't know me, you know, it was supposed to be this trial basis. Um, so I became a contract lawyer. I worked my way up in about three months, four months later, I was promoted to associate which back then was a big deal because I wasn't a summer and we really didn't take entry levels in Atlanta at the time.

 That's where I was working. And, you know, kind of fell into this insurance defense space. I was working for a partner and that was his practice. And so I did a lot with him and really was getting my feet wet in litigation at that point. And then at shortly, you know, thereafter, I'd say six and a half years later, I was promoted to a partner.

 and served well in that role started develop my own book of business in a commercial litigation space. And then, you know, several years after that, I became an equity partner and I say all this, really not to toot my own horn, but I say it because.  it goes to show that you can start, which in a law firm, everyone is says is kind of like a, this hierarchical space.

 you can start really at very entry level and work your way up. And I there's been so many things that I contribute to that success, but I certainly didn't do it alone. So tell us a little bit more about if you don't mind. Obviously you don't get there alone. And you've, and you've shared that just now, but what does that mean when you say we don't get there alone?

 Like, what does that look like to you and what, who was it or what was it, or what were the circumstances around like how you were so enabled to progress so quickly? I mean, beyond just your, your amazing abilities. Yeah. You know, it's so many people Nita. I mean, when I think back on my life and how blessed and how lucky and how honored I feel to be where I am, I really can't stress that enough.

 Um, and so when I think about. How I've gotten here. I think about my parents who were always supportive and gave me the space and the time and the energy to, to allow me and help me chase my dreams, um, and allow me to make mistakes. I think about my sisters who have inspired me over the years, who we are all completely different and do different things, but you know, to have that sounding board of people who are unlike you, but have your best interests of heart, I think about.

 My colleagues, my women colleagues, who, when I decided to have children stepped in for me so that I could spend six months at home with. My new baby. And that was three different times. I have three kids. Mm-hmm  um, I think about my husband who was really the backbone of my success, you know, I wouldn't be able to do any of this without his support.

 I think about mentors. I think about a sponsor. The managing partner of my firm was a huge sponsor of mine from the moment I walked in the door. And him making sure that I had good assignments and leadership opportunities and opportunities to develop business. So I think about all of those things and without those things, I just would not have been able to achieve the success that I have achieved.

 It's, you know, they say it takes it village and it certainly does. And you phrase it. I think when we connected before today, Phrase it, as you know, it has been so important that there are these people, you know, and you, you talked about women, but also some men who stood in the gap for me and that phrasing is powerful and has stuck with me.

 And it has motivated me to think about a, what gaps can I stand in for people and B how can I identify the gaps that need standing in, in my own life and where can I seek that support? So do you have any kind of advice or thoughts on how we, or how our listeners can approach that? Yeah. I mean, standing in the gap for others is something I learned from my mother who that's just who she was and, you know,  oftentimes I ask people like, how do you just raise good children?

 Like, what do you do? And everyone responds by saying, you just are good. They look at you and they see that you're a good person, a caring person, a giving person, a loving person. And then that's who you raise. And it sounds like such a cliche statement, but it's so true. And when I say standing in the gap, I really think.

 When I've taken maternity leave and other people have stepped up for me, I was never afraid about people stealing my clients or, you know, trying to look good in front of, you know, spaces that I normally led or, you know, I never worried about that because I had such supportive women step up for me. My mother passed in January.

 And I think about that time, because it was a very difficult time for me personally. Mm-hmm and of course you check out a work, you check out of a lot of different things because you have your family obligations. And I have my colleagues who just took over my cases. They literally, you know, jumped right in, you know, I didn't get inundated with questions about, so what can we do to help you?

They just saw the need and fulfilled. And so life is always gonna happen. Like everyone's gonna have a loss, you're gonna experience grief. You're gonna have a child. You're gonna just have a time period where you just need a time out. We all go through that. And I always try to remember the people that stood in the gap for me.

 And I will always stand in the gap for others because I understand and realize how stressful that time can be. And it has just amplified my career. It has made it that much sweet. Now, I don't say suggest that you don't have bad days because everyone does. And some days you just wanna give up and throw it in the towel and do something else.

 But if you can be a person that stands in the gap for others, you will have an outstanding career. It'll feel good. And to me, when you have a career that feels. You've achieved success, no matter how much money you've had. Yeah. I love that. You said that I could not agree with you more Lynne when you say that.

 And there's, there's two specific things that really stand out for me in kind of what you've said from the beginning up to now. And it's this idea of having an example and leading by example and how important that is. And then second trust in others. And that, you know, when you lead from a position of doing for others, that when they do for you, you don't then have to worry and you can trust in others in the community, around you, that they're not out there to kind of, you know, get your job or steal your cases or whatever the case may be.

 Like, you kind of build this virtuous cycle of you help one and others help. Right. Um, there's a concept that I heard. I cannot remember for the life of me, who I heard it from, but it's called the Ocho concept and it is, it's an acronym and it stands for one can help others. Others can help one. And I just loved that because it just made me think of, of exactly what you just said around, you know, leading by example and trusting in others in the community.

 I love that. And it's so true. I mean, it really just, you know, amplifies your life when you have these psychologically safe relationships at work. You know, I spend so much time with the people that I work with and I always say this funny quote that like the people that I spend my time with at work, I would be friends with in real life.

 Mm-hmm . I say that to say that, you know, we all have personal friends, friends from college or neighborhood friends, but when you find friends at work that you would be friends with in real life, it just makes it so much better. It makes it so much more bearable, so much more fun, so much more satisfying.

 And so I always encourage people to find those relationships and value them and keep them, and, you know,  oftentimes when life takes over, you can lean on these relationships and these friendships that will really help you. Totally agree. Can you do me a favor though? Cause I'd love to understand you sort of talked about psychologically safe relationships and I typically hear psychological safety in the context of kind of like showing up as your whole authentic.

 To work. How would you define psychological safety with respect to either work or relationships? So I could probably do it with both. So at work, I would describe it as not always be going to work and being comfortable to be your whole self, but also. Feeling safe to be your whole self feeling safe, to be authentic, to offer your views that may different from others without fear of being excluded for lunch the next day, or, uh, you know, being excluded for any type of other social opportunities at work, um, and friendships, the way I describe it is having someone that you.

 Talk to about anything in the world without fear of judgment. Mm-hmm  with someone who. Cheer for you when you're right, but also pull your coattail when you're wrong. Privately mm-hmm  and discreetly mm-hmm  and the relationship doesn't change. And I strive for psychological safety in both professional and personal to me.

 That's how I've maximized my life by finding these relationships that give me value. And then I work extra hard to make sure that I'm giving others value. And when you have two people always striving to do that. Your relationship would be out of this world professionally or personally. Yeah. So, you know, it used to actually be a phrase that came out of de and I work, um, about bringing your whole self to work and, you know, people got more job, job satisfaction when they felt psychologically safe at work, they stayed at the place of employment longer.

They were more loyal to their company. They worked harder. They were more productive. And so it was more so the HR term, because you wanted people to feel safe because it increased your bottom line. Mm-hmm  I have kind of switched it to you wanna feel safe so that you maximize your. Work life balance so that you maximize your relationships.

And I have found that that has been a great use for it as well. Yeah. And it strikes me that you can't have standing in the gap without that safety, right. Because for me to show up and stand in the gap for you, you have to feel safe that I'm doing that. To support you. I have to feel safe that you're gonna see that for what it is, even if I make a misstep, even if I mess something up, even if I, you know what I mean, that you're gonna look at it and try to see the intent behind it.

And that all comes from a foundation right. Of, of safety to be able to like stand in those gaps for each other and show up for each other without. And I think you said it really clearly, like people didn't come and say, what could we do? They saw a need and they filled it, but to see the need and to fill it and to feel comfortable filling.

without that permission requires that foundation, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's the trust mm-hmm  that you need to stand in the gap. It's the respect, the mutual respect from the two people. Yep. To stand in the gap. And if you don't have those

things, it's not an authentic connection.  and it won't sustain for years. It'll be a kind of a one off. And what I'm sharing today is not more of one off things. I mean, we're all kind people. So if someone says, Hey, do you mind grabbing me a diet Coke out of the refrigerator? I mean, of course we're, that's a one off mm-hmm , I'm talking about deep, authentic sustaining years of relationships with women, men, whatever it is that will last a lifetime.

I wanna add one thing to that though, if I, if it's okay. Cuz I really love, I think it's trust, respect. You hit the nail on the head, the component that I feel so strongly coming from you as well as an underpinning to that is gratitude. Everything that you have said, and in the way that you have positioned it in this conversation, even just now is coming from a true place of appreciation that you have this.

And when you come from that true place of appreciation, that is also when others see that. It's an example that others see and they, they kind of appreciate that so much that they're also willing to kind of offer it up of themselves. Absolutely. I mean, gratitude is what I lead with in everything that I do.

And reminding a per no one ever wants to not feel like you are not being grateful and people may say, oh, don't worry about a thank you. But I send it anyway. Mm-hmm  because to me, I want you to know, and I know my fr my close friends, when they do something nice. I'll send a thank you card. And they're like, I know, I know you're grateful.

And I said, I know, but I need you to know in this letter and I need to show it to you this way. Mm-hmm  now, you know, that doesn't happen all the time. You know, life. Thank you. Cards can be . Yeah, the whole thing. Gratitude is so important. Um, especially when you rise the ranks of your respective companies or a law firm, or even in the medical field, you know, I always take it upon myself to tell my assistant how grateful I am for her.

And she thinks that what she does is on a small scale. But to me, mm-hmm, , I can't put a price on my piece when it comes to someone who I. Who has my back, who reminds me when I have meetings who, you know, sends me things at the drop of a dime, she is so much a part of how my life works. Mm-hmm  and I take it upon myself to always remind her of that.

And so gratitude is huge. It's huge. And it should go both ways. Gratitude is recognition, right? I mean, that's really what you're talking about. It's like being recognized for the value that you add to somebody else's life work process, whatever it is. I mean, that's, I think a big driver for us in life overall, but professionally in particular, right.

Being seen for the value we bring, um, and gratitude is a big part of that. It's actually, I'm glad you spoke first because you led perfectly into a point, uh, that I was going to make. We have some, you know, data that we share at Thompson Reuters around, um, you know, what surveys that we do of lawyers and the reasons that they stay in firms or leave to go to other firms.

And it's really, um, you know, different, different reasons for it. But the. Three that fall outside of kind of compensation. One of them is this feeling of, um, being genuinely appreciated for the work that they do. So it just, what you are saying really speaks to even the data that we see across the board.

And it brings me kind of to another question that I have for you around where you have built your career and the firm that you're in. You've talked a lot, you know, not just in your career as, as a practicing lawyer there, but also in your role as the chief diversity and inclusion officer there, the way that the culture is at that firm and how everybody kind of takes the ownership and responsibility of building the kind of culture that you've just described in, um, you know, the teams or the relationships that you have, or the people that you work with.

I'd like for you to talk to us a little bit about. The impact of workplace culture on the individual and what your perspective is on that. So at coz and O'Connor, our culture is everything to us. We are very purposeful about building culture, um, and inclusive culture. And that looks very different for different people, but for us, it looks like a culture of family.

First. I think our CEO will always say to put your family first, um, which is one thing that resonated with me very early on. We try to. Think about how we can make life better for our employees. And what does that look like? And that can look like providing coffee in the morning for someone who, you know, really just needs that, you know, when they get to work, I'm one of those people, or whether that looks like PR putting pronouns on our signature block, especially for allies so that someone else feels more comfortable displaying their pronouns.

Um, whether that looks like. Our benefits packages and what are we offering our employees when it comes to individuals who may be transgender. So all of these things plays a part of culture, which is something that we are very purposeful and serious about. Um, we interview all of our lawyers and groups of lawyers and we talk to every single person because we wanna know.

Who's coming in our doors. Are this gonna be someone who fits into our culture of kindness and inclusiveness and acceptance and hardworking and entrepreneurial. So we look at all of those things and we are very purposeful about. The people that we hire, the companies that we work with, the clients that we service, my mother used to say all money's not good money.

And I think that that's one reason that I have I've stayed at CoSN so long is because the moral values of this place is put on a pedestal amongst everything else. And to me, you can't put a price on that. Yeah. I heard you say one time. I think in one of our previous conversations, A lot of, a lot of people say the right things to say, but what you are describing is that where you are and the people you've surrounded yourself with and the workplace that you've surrounded yourself with is actually living what is being articulated.

And there's a very big difference between articulated culture, which can often be easily with a check the box. Like we have made a commitment to. And then the living culture, which is the daily manifestation of that experience. That's a huge point and the way that I can best describe that is we all know two summers ago, George Floyd was murdered in Minneapolis and it was an awful tragedy that created this groundswell of support for various different movements.

Statements were released by companies, chief diversity officers were hired. It was this huge, huge, um, groundswell. D E and I efforts from companies, law firms everywhere in, in between what I was so proud about from Kohn's perspective is we had been doing. I was already in place. And I had been, for years, we had already had a diversity committee in place with 40 different people all across the country.

Um, of course we released a statement. Of course, we gave money to the NAACP. Of course we gave money to the lawyers committee, but at the end of the day, I didn't feel like this was new to us. Mm-hmm  and. I'm not saying that to discourage people that may be on the back end of D E and I, but there's also a lot of companies and people and places that have been walking this walk for a really long time.

And when I hear people talk about their DNI efforts, I'm always saying, oh, well, what's your budget because it's so important. To have money behind your efforts. And if you don't, to me, that's a sign that you may not be walking the walk and you may just be talking the talk. I don't pass judgment. So I think that if you're doing anything, anything is better than nothing and you have to start somewhere.

And so I try to empower those that are just starting out with the information and knowledge that I have obtained over the years, but there's very easy to tell kind of, you know, If you actually have a program where you're implementing change, or if you have a check the box D E N I initiative program. So there's two things I wanna say to that.

One is there's a, we say this here internally at tr where it's, you know, you show me your budget and I'll show you where your values are. Um, so I can completely relate to that, but I also wanted you to unpack a little bit.  um, around, when you were hired, you have been doing this, you know, at coz and O'Connor for long before George Floyd, and you've obviously been ma making those types of investments, but something that you had said.

Once when you, um, when you had been elected or promoted into that role at the firm, I think that you had asked a couple of questions and I'd like for you to kind of talk through, um, what did you ask of the firm before you decided that you wanted to take the ownership and responsibility as the chief diversity and inclusion?

Yeah, no, that's a great question. And I, so I was living in Atlanta at the time that I was asked to serve in this role, practicing lawyer, still a practicing lawyer. And they said, Hey, you know, we really want you to serve as our chief diversity equity and inclusion officer, we'd like you on the east coast.

And so it was a big move and decision for me. I had a lot of questions and I, I remember I caught up the managing partner and I said, listen, like. You know, I'm still gonna be practicing law and he's like, of course we want you to. And I said, but also, you know, what's my job on the D E and I front, you know, do you, is it my job to bring in more people of color?

You know, is this the numbers game? Like, what are your expectations of me? And he looked at me and he said, no, you know, that's not your job. That's all of our job. And when he said that,  I said, okay, where do I sign? I'm ready to go? Because I knew that this was not just going to be them relying on me. Lynne Espy-Williams is one person to change the culture or to bring in more, you know, diverse hires or, you know, to, to be outreach to our LGBTQ plus employees.

This was all of our job to do that. And it was going to be a village. If you will. Of work. And that's when I decided that this was gonna be a great position and a great marriage between de and I and practicing law for me. So I know this isn't exactly what you meant when you talked about standing in the gap.

But what I really heard when you said that story, it or told that story is that. When it comes to your role as diversity, equity and inclusion, you weren't gonna be standing in the gap alone. That is so true. And that was critically important. It is critically important. It is not a one person gap to stand in.

It is an all of us gap to stand in. And, and so just to bring it full circle from where we started this conversation, um, that really like. Again, this whole notion of like, where are the gaps? How do we stand in them? How do we build the foundation of trust to do that is such a powerful, powerful thing that I've been thinking about since we talked a couple weeks ago.

So yeah, no, I would, I would even push back on you a little bit Becky and say it's not just critically important. It is essential. It's required. I accept your, uh, accept your red line. Yeah.   yeah. Yeah. Essential. I like that word better. Yes. Yes. It's essential. If you want to have any type of inclusive culture environment yep.

In a workplace to work for everyone. Awesome. Well, we've reached the end of our conversation for today anyway. And before we go, we like to ask our guests a couple of rapid fire questions. So, um, we did not pre-game on this, so we're just gonna mm-hmm  we're gonna roll with it. I'll pick one, you pick one Nita.

I've got mine lined up and it's this Lynne, what advice would you give? Your 18 year old self. Oh wow.  . Um, my 18 year old self, I would tell my 18 year old self to truly find out what it is that you are passionate about and pour everything. Every resource, every opportunity into that. I would also tell my 18 year old self that money isn't everything.

And your peace. Um, your quality time, your rest mm-hmm  should be prioritized above everything else. So you just brought tears to my eyes when you said that. I mean, I, I'm almost unable to ask my next question. You just hit the cord right there for me, Lynne, on that, I do have one question though. What do you think that the world needs most right now?

These questions, guys, you should have given 'em to me beforehand.  goodness. I don't know. You're doing pretty well unprepared so far, so, oh my goodness. Okay. What does the world mean more of today? My mother used to always tell us that kindness matters. And that's in every aspect of your life. You know, I'm getting tears in my eyes, Uhhuh mm-hmm, , it's in every aspect of your life.

And so whether it's being kind to the young mother that you see at the grocery store, who just needs the extra hand or the young mom on the plane that just can't get her bag up, you know, that just needs a little bit of help or, you know, you see someone who just needs a, a word of encouragement. You know, I, you see that all around.

If you're in tune to your community, There are so many people that just need a little something. And if you can be a person to offer that, It matters. And so if everyone did that in this world, I think that we would just be in a much better place. Everyone's so used to their schedules and their time and, you know, kind of minding their business.

And of course it's appropriate to mind your business sometimes, but mm-hmm,  sometimes people just need an encouraging word and. If you look around, you'll be able to tell who does. Yeah. It's interesting that you say that about four years ago, I, on my birthday decided I was gonna embark on a year of random acts of kindness.

So one extra thing every day, it could be small is holding the door. It could be big is, you know, making a donation, but just, I wanted to be really thoughtful and intentional. And the biggest lesson actually that I learned from it was how. Infrequently we, and I mean, the broadest globalist, we engage with the people around us.

I had to work real hard. I had to put my phone down. I had to keep my eyes up to look for the opportunities and we are not trained to do that. So I really, really resonate with what you say and it, it does matter. It really does. And I wanna add one additional point to that, and I realize that this is not making it rapid , but I'll say, I'll say this slow burn fire today.

It's all good. I think what I have realized, especially here as I'm, you know, getting older in my life, it's this. Idea that when you act kindly toward somebody else, that it is as much for you, it ends up being as fulfilling for you and maybe even more so than for somebody else. And what that does. For your own wellbeing and your own resilience and your own ability to trust is so impactful.

The research agrees with you. Mm-hmm . Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I love that. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for this conversation. Um, we really appreciate as need to set and honor you and the work that you're doing, we will put in the show notes away for people to connect with you through LinkedIn.

If they're looking. To track you down and ha continue the conversation. Sure. And just, um, thank you for being here. No, thank you so much. Thank it's been an honor talking with you. Brought me to tears girl. Oh,  I know this is like, this is, uh, officially our first podcast tears. Oh, so well done. And, and actually that just speaks to, I mean, really the heart, the heart of who you are, which is showing up with your whole heart.

That's very clear to me, so, oh, thank you. Both. This is been so awesome. Who would've thought that this, uh, wellness recipe. Series at my firm would leave to this. So, you know, and then Youa saw the book in my office, like I had it up and this has been awesome. It always happens as it should. So, yes. All right.

Thanks for being here and see you. You're welcome. Talk to

you.

Hi, this is Nita. You can connect with both Beck. On LinkedIn links are in the show notes. We'd love to hear from you. If you know someone who is doing meaningful work that contributes to wellbeing and think they'd be a great guest for our show. Please let us know. And if you're enjoying the show, please leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform.