Building an Army of Well-Being Advocates – with Bree Buchanan

On this episode of Practice Well(Being) Bree Buchanan joins us to share her story which took her from developing a panic disorder in law school, to practicing attorney in the domestic violence space using alcohol to cope with stress, to losing her marriage and job which prompted her to go all in on recovery. This personal journey ultimately propelled her to be the Chair of ABA’s commission on Lawyer’s Assistance Program and the Founding co-chair of the National Task Force on Lawyer Well-Being and co-author of its groundbreaking 2017 report, The Path to Well-Being: Practical Recommendations for Positive Change.  Now she’s the president of the Institute for Well-Being in Law (IWIL).

 In this deeply impactful conversation we talked about:

• How who we are and what we do as lawyers works against well-being. 
• The importance of understanding the ways that the world is different and how the “calcified culture” of the legal profession is negatively impacting lawyer well-being. Spoiler alert – we all agree it’s time for some serious evolution. 
• A new vision for the future of work in law which includes well-being and the leadership and army of advocates it will take to get there. 

You can also find Bree on LinkedIn or at IWIL. You can connect with Nita on LinkedIn. You can connect with Becky on LinkedIn, Instagram or at her website – www.untanglehappiness.com  

Transcript

This is Becky in this week's episode of practice wellbeing. We talk with Bree Buchanan, the president of the Institute for wellbeing in law and the founding co-chair of the national task force on lawyer wellbeing and co-author of its groundbreaking 2017 report. The path to wellbeing, practical recommendations for positive change.

Bree shared her personal journey with us, which led to her taking such a strong leadership role in advancing wellbeing in the legal profession. You'll wanna tune into this conversation as we tackle topics like why, who we are and what we do as lawyers makes wellbeing uniquely challenging. And as we share and explore a new vision for the future of law and the leadership and army of wellbeing advocates that it will take to get us.

Let's get started.

Bree thank you so much for joining us today. It's so great to have you here. I'm just delighted to be here. Thank you. I'm so looking forward to this conversation, I know we've only just met this year, but I also know that the instant that I met you, I just knew we would find a way to work more together. And here we are.

So, um, for your story is just. So incredibly impactful. And I think where, where we'd like to start is I'm gonna ask you to take us back a bit, you know? Sure. Tell us about you, tell your story, this journey that you've been on and how we've kind of arrived to where we are in the midst of, of now a wellbeing movement in legal.

And I would say society at large and that in so many ways, specifically within legal, you have actually helped to catalyze. So, um, I'd love to just hear more about your background and how you got. Absolutely. I'm 32 year lawyer. And so I am entering the day new mall of my career  so I look back over it. And sometimes I think I struggled in so many ways and, um, just to cut to the, the very chase.

Sometimes I feel like all that lived experience and hardship. Has really prepped me for the work in the wellbeing space in law. So lemme just take you back a little bit and some experiences for me. I mean, I came into the legal profession already with a, some levels of depression and anxiety. I had a pretty difficult, um, experiences growing up and brought that with me to the doors of the law school.

And so by the end of my first semester, I had developed a panic disorder. I had. Raging imposter syndrome and had no, of course this was what, 1986. No one had heard of that. It was not even a concept that I could fathom. I just knew that I wasn't good enough, um, to be there at that law school, with all those other smart people.

Developed a panic disorder started doing what, um, what works, I guess, in law school and the legal profession at that time, which was to drink. And I quite frankly, self-medicated that anxiety with alcohol. Got into the profession, started doing, uh, domestic violence litigation. So really high pressure, high stakes, you know, you mess up these kids, go back into a home with an abuser.

Um, so really, really stressful. And, um, I dealt with burnout and now I knew kind of what burnout was, but I had no idea what secondary PTSD. We didn't know what PTSD was, compassion, fatigue, those sort of things. And I, and I dealt with all of that a lot. Um, given the incredible level of trauma that was in the, the cases that I was handling.

And so I continued to use the crutch, the mechanism to cope with all of that stress and anxiety and bouts of depression. And that was alcohol. And so to cut to the chase over the course of two decades, um, my alcohol use progressed and I went from two glasses a night to two bottle. Denied and developed a severe alcohol use disorder ultimately ended up losing my marriage.

Um, that wasn't enough to get me to stop drinking. As I found is not uncommon with lawyers. Um, but then I lost my job and that really got my attention. And so from that moment forward, I threw myself into recovery. I, my gosh, I went to 12 steps and I had a therapist and I had psychiatrist and I did meditation  and I, uh, did just an exercise and everything I could.

Because I had become somebody I did not recognize anymore. And I did not like that person at all and who I'd become. So I was really blessed to be able to then after being helped by a lawyer's assistance program, I ended up going to work for that lawyer's assistance program. And did that for nine years, became the director of that program and was really fortunate to just some of this being in the right place at the right time and became chair of the ABAs commission on lawyers assistance programs.

And that put me in the place to be a part of a group of lawyers that came together in 2016, because we finally had good data around the level of behavioral health problems in the legal profession. And so, because we knew that we had a window of opportunity to. Change to take action. And so we formed the national task force on lawyer wellbeing, got all different kinds of groups, national organizations of regulators and judges.

The conference of chief justices were backing what we were doing and we wrote this report. That's still available, lawyer wellbeing. Do.  our biggest fear is that no one would read it.  mm-hmm  I run into people now who can quote from it. Mm-hmm  it's a little eerie , but, but it's true. And so the first thing we did, it was a letter to the chief justices of each state Supreme court to take responsibility for the state of wellbeing in their, within their jurisdiction and convene a statewide task force.

That, um, we now have about 30 of those. So it was clear, there was a huge appetite for this work, uh, for change in the legal profession. And so, um, ultimately time goes forward. We created the Institute for wellbeing and law, and, um, I got to become the president of that. And here we are talking today. Nita

It's just amazing, you know, to hear, to hear your story and this journey and what I imagine so many people can relate to, particularly in this industry, even if it didn't get quite to sort of the dire level that, that you had got to get to that realization, I'm interested, you know, you found your purpose in and amongst all of this, it sounds like mm-hmm  and absolutely.

The inspiration that you have that comes across so clearly, and is making such an impact on every person who you sort of speak to. It's interesting that you said when you co-authored that report, that your biggest fear is that nobody would read it. Right. What kind of impact were you expecting if that's the fear from which you started?

What were you expecting? Oh my gosh. Um, it really was a whirlwind from the beginning. I mean, right. As right when we were publishing it, the conference of chief justices took it up and passed a re resolution in support of it. So from the very moment it was released, it began a whirlwind of activity, but in those, you know, nine months leading up and we were writing it truly, we were working so hard.

We didn't really. Too much about the other side, we had so much to do to write that, uh, report and just, we had hopes. That somebody would  pay attention. And, and we just were hit with incredible levels of acceptance and a claim really, as soon as it was published. So we didn't have to wait long to see how the profession would react to it.

I'm curious, maybe if you could tell us some surprising things that kind of come on the back end and you've sort of said maybe the acclaim was surprising. Maybe the acceptance was surprising. Is there anything else that you weren't expecting, but that has materialized kind of as a result of this, either the report or the work, you know, the follow on work that you've done.

Right to see the level of, uh, incredible buy in and passion for the work around wellbeing and law. When we were writing this, one of the things that we talked about in this group was that we needed to create an army of wellbeing advocates. And that just sounded like some sort of nice verbiage something to say,  I, um, never believed that we really or not, didn't never, but it was hard to believe the, how much that would come to fruition and how quickly.

So, um, just a year ago, the Institute for wellbeing and law, we launched our committee structure and we have seven committees at diversity equity and inclusion and programming and research and policy among a couple of others. And we now have over 150 people. Plugged into those committees and they meet every month and they're working on projects.

And, um, another thing that surprised me about that is when we open. We didn't just say anybody come on and join. We had an actual application process. People had to apply and we reviewed their applications and assigned them to committees. And the, the minute we opened up for applications, we were swamped  with people wanting to become a part of this.

So that's that army of wellbeing advocates that has come about in a relatively well, very short period of time. And it continue. To grow if it's okay. You need to, I have a flip side question to that, which is, you know, so there's been this progress. There's been this army created, I'm curious where you like.

What's left to still do, like, where's the progress most urgently needed? Where are we headed? Cuz I know we're not done. Like I, I, I'm not asking that question, knowing that this is always going to be a work in progress, but I'm curious what you're seeing, um, from where you sit. Absolutely. I would say we're, uh, brought together the team to work on this and, but we have just begun our work because our constituents in this process.

Is the whole of the legal profession. So we're working on issues for law students and lawyers of every type of employment, as well as the judiciary. So there's, as you can imagine, there's a, a tremendous amount to do there. And I think that, um, some of the, the places where we need to expand the most is just the real, basic stuff.

Still. Which is around raising awareness that this is behavioral health issues. Um, and some of the practices and culture of a legal profession are really crushing for a lot of people. And they're crushing in particular for people who have not been historically within the inner circles of power. So we're talking about women and lawyers who are diverse, you know, it's just been, uh, really slow going to make inroads in that area.

So there's, so we've just started talking about it. There's so much to do in there. I think that a lot of the, a big law. Are starting to make some changes. They're embedding systemically some, you know, health and wellbeing, committees and directors and, um, strategies and putting it a part of their annual plans.

And so that's where they can really be at the tip of the spear and creating change for the legal profession. But there's so many people to follow. A great example is, you know, the majority of lawyers in the United States are solo and.  and we have not even begun to scratch the surface of what we can do to help them really thrive.

So, so much work to do. And I think something very key to what you just said, and that's resonated in every conversation I've ever had with you is this like need to raise literacy, build literacy, raise awareness in order to create systemic change. And that is so multi-layered in. Who needs to be involved, the type of learning that we need to have the type of education that we need to provide.

Mm-hmm  um, it's not single faceted. It's multifaceted. Yeah. It's it's like you said, there's an impact on women. There's an impact on. You know, diverse people, there's an impact on it's it's in so many in different cultures. Like there's so many layers to this. And so it brings me to, to the idea that everybody can actually play a role in this.

Everybody has an opportunity to contribute to the change that we're trying to create in the space of wellbeing. Um, And I'm just so curious about who is most encouraging or influential to you when you go out and you sort of seek support, or you're trying to draw people into this mission that you have.

Mm. I draw inspiration from this. I, we said the army of wellbeing advocates, but all these people out there who are, um, really creating new areas of work and thought. And research in this space, um, in so many ways, it is it's new territory. You know, there's not many things where there's new territory anymore.

Mm-hmm  in 2022, but looking at wellbeing and trying to, to diminish some of the, the distress and the behavioral health issues that are so rampant, legal profession, that's new T. That we're, we're launching ourselves on. And so all of that is really exciting and looking around at these people that are standing with us and kind of at the starting line on this great project, and there's so much hope and great, uh, feelings of, um, just energy around it.

Um, I'm so excited to see how this journey continue. So I wanna ask about something that you said, and I'm not gonna remember your exact words, but you framed it in such a way that what I took from it was essentially that to some extent, the way that the legal profession is set up to work is counter to wellbeing.

can you say a little bit more about that? Right. So there's a couple of things. There's the, who the lawyers are and then there's what we do. And so lawyers, we are trained from the minute we walk into the law school is to build up our sort of our armor. Um, and we cannot ever be vulnerable. And so, because we're these, these, um, warriors on behalf of our clients, we can't ask for help.

And so that is a huge piece of this is the. Inability feeling that there you're unable and the absolute extreme unwillingness to get help for fairly, uh, foreseeable behavioral health problems, um, in the legal profession. And, um, it all comes out of the stigma that still attaches the fear. And so we're talking about, you know, what do we need to do here to change things?

And we still have an incredible amount of like, You were saying of education for people to change people's minds? I would say overwhelmingly just from my putting my finger on the pulse of the, sort of the profession. And I mostly deal with big law is that people would rather just about do anything than reveal that they have a struggle with burnout or depression within their work.

As much as we talk about it, it's okay to not be okay.  mm-hmm  um, you know, all of the things we're talking about, it's the right thing to do is to get help. We have so far to go to where we have actual buy-in from the lawyers themselves. And so if we're going to do that, what we have to do is it's really incumbent upon the leadership.

And that gets back to the focus of the national task force report, which was. Directed at the highest leaders of the profession. I was really privileged to lead the Michigan Supreme court yesterday in the launch of their wellbeing task force. And there's so much energy there around what they're doing.

Um, but. There's also a lot of, um, just fear and trepidation about what it's gonna take to really, uh, move the dial and change the profession and get people's. Um, get their thoughts around this, that again, getting just that basic kind of thing. It's okay. To not be okay. The right thing to do is to ask for.

So the other thing I just wanna say that I think, I think is important to think about what, um, in changing these hearts and minds, especially of leadership, mm-hmm, , you know, a big barrier that I see if people that are the, and there's such a generational factor here, right? People of older generations in leadership say, well, I did it, you know, I made it through this.

Why do we now have to Cowal at  yep. Vulnerable populations and, you know, there's this sort of that impression. And one of the things that I think people we need to get a sense of is that a lot of these, this culture and these practices and the way we did do things were come from a time in the profession.

There were not computers even on our desks. Right? Mm-hmm  when I started practicing 1989, I did not have a computer. I had a,  a Dictaphone, you know, I would go home on the weekends and I'd have a trial on Monday. I could call in and check my voicemail, but that's the, the, what I would have to do the atmosphere we've got now is 24 7 365.

Accessibility. And that is not compatible with humans. It's compatible with AI, but it's not compatible with a human being. And we're really seeing that. And so I think that people who come from. Older generations. My hope is they can start to see that that world that they lived in has completely changed.

And so those rules though, that culture needs to shift as well. We've got sort of this calcified culture in the legal profession that was appropriate for maybe the eighties mm-hmm , um, or before. But it's just not now. And it's, and it's killing people that are in the profession that are trying to keep up with these expectations.

I have a young person in my life who frequently will tell me and the generation above me, just because you could live like, that doesn't mean that you have to live like that. Right, right. Or that you should, or that you shouldn't just because you could, that you should. Right. It's exactly the point. I was actually just about to make Becky.

It's not surprising at all. This notion around like flipping the script. Yep. Right now. And is it totally ridiculous that we might evolve as a profession to find a better way to do the work that we do? Is that totally ridiculous that we could find evolution in. How we live as lawyers or how we live in this space of performance, which I think is very, very important to acknowledge because what you sort of said before around, um, You know, being warriors and not showing vulnerability and working so hard to not, to not be vulnerable, you know, to spot any, any place where you could possibly be vulnerable, it's really kind of comes down to performance.

Right. Well, what if you could optimize your performance? Absolutely in a way that you zealously represent your clients. Right? And, and like part of that zealous representation is like having a healthy mind, body and spirit. It's your wellbeing. Absolutely. And again, getting it back to a generational divide, the generation that is coming into the legal profession, they are very well versed in talking about behavioral health issues.

They prioritize that. Um, like you said, they, they look, look at what has gone before and they say, mm, no, we can do better. And so what I tell people often is that if you look at the generations that are coming into the legal profession, now you can see where we are headed.  and work life balance, flexibility.

All of these things I really believe will come to pass because the people that are the associates now talk to them, listen to what they say. They are watching. Mm-hmm , they're watching very closely. Their leadership and the profession and they know what kind of profession they wanna build when their hands get on the steering wheel.

Right. When they age into becoming leadership and partner and shareholder, et cetera. They already have a vision for what the profession should look like, and it will be very different. So, and I regularly tell people, you know, the Institute, we're just trying to push us.  a little down the road faster than to get there than we will, but we will be there.

The profession will change naturally as the leadership changes over mm-hmm, , there's an element of this too. That is an unwillingness. In, I'll say the younger generations, but an unwillingness to continue postponing the enjoyment of life. Right? Mm-hmm  the system in law firms. Not unlike other large employment places is work hard, putting your time, get the payoff at the end.

Mm-hmm  I think we're we're what we're witnessing is, especially in the post COVID world, an unwillingness to wait until the end. Right, right. Cause what if the end comes sooner than we expected it to? What if we aren't there for the payoff? What if the payoff doesn't look like we want it to, and I distinctly remember when I was an associate part of the reason I came off partnership track is I looked at the partner I was working for and said, where's that payoff again?

Mm-hmm  yeah. Do I want my life to look like this? When. 50. Yeah. Or 60. And the answer often is no. Yes. And so at the time now what, 15 plus years ago, it felt like the choice was stay and hope for the best and I'm looking at it and I'm not sure I'm gonna get the payoff.  or make an absolute change. And so that's what I did, but what I find interesting is the, the conversations that are happening about other ways to get there, as you said, you know, there is a vision for what this could look like, and I appreciate the work you're doing and that I will is doing to sort of advance that, you know, the whole army.

Is needed to advance that vision. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think so much of it, of what we'll we will see from this generation is creativity in finding new work paths. Yes. Flexibility. People want the flexibility. I don't think lawyers at times wanna work less in their life, but overall lawyers become lawyers cuz they want and like to work.

And they're engaged and it's, and it's intellectually stimulating. So, you know, I don't think that that's gonna change, but we, um, just need a little, a dose of sanity  to go along with that. Mm-hmm  yeah. I'm always very interested in this. I cuz when I speak with, you know, the bid law firms that I work with on a daily basis, a question that comes up fairly consistently is.

Around like strategic planning for the future mm-hmm  and how do we set ourselves up for a sustainable future? And what are the pillars that are required? Do you think that wellbeing is a fundamental pillar for the future of law? Absolutely. Because people law is made up of its people, right. And the people are looking.

Um, how can they have a better, uh, healthier life? And so if law firm and not, if I know law firms are exquisitely concerned about recruiting the best talent. About retaining the best talent. And we know, uh, gosh, I think there's like some Thompson Reuter's article , that's true. That talks about, um, you know, that what.

Lawyers are looking for is not just the money. I mean, in this attrition crisis, we have big law has been throwing huge amounts of money at associates, um, to come on board and to stay and. That will only move the dial so far. And I think what the research is showing is that it's, it's sure being adequately, not adequately well compensated, but also having, being able to live their life as a full expression of your humanity, which means more than working.

It means having a family, if you choose to do so. Mm-hmm  or whatever that family may look like for you and having a full life. So you have to have some space out of that. To carve out that full lot. Yes. I mean that you're, you're absolutely right. The data does show that it, that compensation is really not about how much, as much as it is about, is it fair?

Right? Mm-hmm  am I being fairly compensated then? Once you've determined that that's when it becomes just a table stakes thing. Yeah. Compensation is table stakes. It is not how you differentiate it. It's just merely how you keep. Love that. And then what we're hearing is, how am I do I, is there a genuine regard for my wellbeing?

Yeah. Yeah. They, they wanna know. Do you care about me as a human being? Yes. Do you appreciate the work that I'm doing? Are you helping me to take those next steps in my career? Like career progression that, that it's all centered around and is the environment in which I'm working, not toxic? Is it, is it a healthy environment?

That's really, really important. The cultural piece of it. So I think it's critical in that all organizations, not just law firms need to be thinking about. This as a fundamental pillar of the, the future of their organization, the future of the industry, right? It's about sustainability, right? I think my next question is like, who do you now hold accountable for that?

Is it the next generation of leaders? Who do we hold accountable for that right now? Yes. It's the leaders of the profession because we're talking about changing culture practices, et cetera. And so it is, it falls upon the leaders and that's why that national task force report was directed at the leader of the individual.

Who's the leader of each justice system. And so we're still talking to those bar association leaders, affinity bar, association leaders. Uh, I think that's a key to getting, um, access and support for solo and small firms. Um, and then we also certainly continue to do a lot of work with, um, big firms. And I just wanted to say one other thing, you know, we talk about a little bit about what research is showing and another, uh, very recent, uh, piece of research.

It's called people professionals and profit centers, uh, by Patrick crill. And it really shows that. He was trying to get at what is behind all of this mm-hmm  what are some of the things that are causing low levels of wellbeing? And he found that the attitude that a firm has towards the people that work there is really, um, definitive.

So the firms where people feel like they are treated and valued for their skill and as a human being. Thrive or have Excel on their feelings of wellbeing are engaged. Wanna continue working? They're a stay, not a go firm. Mm-hmm  you know, so you have the population of those who are feel valued, and then you have a whole nother group of people.

That are not doing well, are not as engaged. And these are the people that are just treated like kind of, I think, gosh, this sounds terrible, like cogs in a machine. Yep. So they don't get a tremendous amount of feedback. They don't feel like they're valued. And then the people that have the least wellbeing are the ones that just feel like they're ciphers in the profession.

Nobody talks to them. Nobody gives 'em feedback. They're not well-compensated, they're just there plugging along, maybe doing document review that. So there really is research. Now that's showing that if you want to engage people, if you wanna retain people, if you want people to thrive, it matters how you value them, how you treat them makes sense.

Right? Absolutely. Well, this has been an awesome conversation. I really have appreciated your insight and I'm excited about the army. So  so we joined the army. Yeah. I mean, that's right. Yeah. Recruit. But before we go, we like to give our guests a couple of rapid fire questions. So I'm gonna ask first and I'll let you go second Nita.

Okay. And my question is.  and particularly in light of the journey you shared with us, I'm curious if you could give your 18 year old self one piece of advice, what would it. Oh, my goodness. Wow. Believe in yourself. Mm-hmm  just believe that that you've got this and everything bone in my body and when I was 18 and all and on through law school, et cetera, constantly terrified that I wasn't good enough.

And I am  so yeah, you are. I have been. And so if I could go back and say something that be, yeah, you're good enough. It's gonna be okay. And I think because Becky actually stole my question. I think the that's why went first. That's why I, like I had of feeling. I was like, oh, she's taken it. I know it. I'm actually just really interested in.

You know, there are people who come into our lives who just make a big difference. You know, they make an impact, even if it's, they come in for a short period of time, they make a big impact. Is there anyone or anything or any book or any human or anything like that that made an impact on you in a way that changed your.

Yeah. Uh, the first person that comes to my mind is actually, um, Jim Coyle. He was my co-chair on the national task force. He was head of regulation in the state of Colorado, has since retired. And he believed in me and he asked me to be his co-chair and he could see in me what I could bring to the movement.

He mentored me. I saw how he mentored people all around him. He made sure people were continuously brought into the circle. He really modeled for me how to be a leader. Um, yeah, making me gonna make me get a little, um, uh, te I here because I really, um, his leadership and his friendship and his support and his bringing me into this work means so much to me.

And I know. That he did the same thing for so many other people. And he's a really an unsung quiet hero. It jives so much with what you just said around, like in the environment, in which you work, the attitude toward the people that their skill and how they can thrive is so important. It sounds like that's what Jim was for you.

He did it naturally. Yeah, you're right. I love that really cool. Well, before we officially sign off for this episode, please tell us and our listeners how we can connect with you, learn more about, I will. What's the best place to start and we'll add links in the show notes. Yeah. So our website is lawyer wellbeing.net.

And so go on that. And there's the easiest way. There's a contact way to contact us through the website. And, um, I find to put up my email address to Bree lawyer, wellbeing.net. Awesome. I'm happy to respond to any questions or ideas. Awesome. Well, thank you again for being here. Thank you listeners for tuning in, and we look forward to seeing you next time on practice wellbeing.

Thank you so much for the work that you do and for being you. Thank you.

Hi, this is Becky. You can connect with both me and Nita on LinkedIn links are in the show notes. We would love to hear from you. If you've got a topic in the wellbeing space that you'd love for us to take on. Let us. We're always curious. We love to learn and we love to do the legwork for you. And finally, if you're enjoying the show, please leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform.